The Paul Weller interview
Article published in NME, 25th December 1982
Paul Weller | The Return Of The Avenger | Part 1 | BRIGHTON IS damp and dreary the day before The Jam play their final concert. But there’s a mischievous smile on Paul Weller’s face as he visualises the final frame of their six-year story.
It would be like a Hollywood B-movie, he imagines humorously. At sunset he would walk out to sea, leaving only a discarded parka lying forlornly on the pebbled beach.
“Some of my friends had some good ideas,” he continues, unable to suppress his enthusiasm for the comic irony. “At the end of the gig we should all go down to the beach. You know the end of Quadrophenia, and he drives along the cliff on his scooter? Sort of go down there and jump off with all our equipment. I quite like that idea.”
Thrown up by punk in the mid-’70s and carried along on the heat and the beat of politics and modern music into the ’80s, it would be unfair to allow Paul Weller’s Master Mod persona to be the epitaph of The Jam. With six studio LPs and a long procession of invariably classic singles to their credit, their effect and success has been nothing less than colossal. Simultaneously, they have been a political focus for Britain’s youth, and a musical inspiration for the way they remained true to their original philosophies.
So much so that their last single, ‘Beat Surrender’ rocketed straight to number one with the same predictability as almost every one they’ve released this decade. That they should have announced their disbandment only weeks earlier proved that their own intense convictions were far stronger than their commercial intentions.
Rock’n’roll immortality died in ’76. And we’ve just been reminded of that again. Even the most callous cynic can only admire Paul Weller for that.
If anything, it seems a relief to him: a catharsis that absolves the painful conflict within his own mind. Should he keep The Jam going out of loyalty to his fans, Bruce Foxton and Rick Buckler, or snap the lifeline to prevent himself (and them) becoming a tarnished icon in what he regards as a despicable industry?
The pressure drops and now he is more personable, relaxed and good-humoured. The abrasive defence mechanism has been disarmed and he is willing to discuss his music, politics, career and future with an undoubted passion —but one of belief rather than insecure aggression. After all, he has proved himself to himself— is there anybody else that matters?
Paul Weller | The Return Of The Avenger | Part 1
Even agreeing to this interview shows how comfortable he now feels. For over a year he has adamantly refused to compromise himself by appearing in NME because he felt it was wrong. A lot of it, he’s made clear, stemmed from what he regarded as a meaningless and trite cocktail set image of ’81 — we were wankers. There was a feeble metaphor of rock rebellion, and a condescending attitude towards the readers.
They’re views that I’ve strongly rebuked — to the extent that earlier this year we had a heated row in The Jam’s dressing room at New York’s Palladium.
His opinions haven’t radically changed. For instance, he makes the point of saying several times during our interview that “NME should drop all this intellectual crap”. Perhaps he is more tolerant, less dogmatic, rarely as verbally violent on what is simply a complete difference of opinion.
Even his familiar press image as the surly, angry young man is seldom evident during our conversation. He’s articulate, candid and frequently humorous. He is also eager to put a perspective on The Jam’s career, to explain his politics and defend his position in a business and entertainment world that has again been poisoned by hypocrisy and greed.
Paul Weller can be just as blunt, offhand and abusive as ever — but then isn’t that what we need? The return of the Avenger.
1982 SEEMS TO BE the end of an era, especially with The Jam now splitting. Probably the only groups still surviving from a similar period are Siousxie And The Banshees and The Clash. Do you see it as that?
No. Cos I think we were the only group to ever carry anything from that time. I thought The Clash should have called it a day years ago. No, I don’t see this as a specific point. Obviously from our own thing — The Jam thing — it is, but I don’t know about the punk thing. I mean, all them other bands, I thought they shit out years ago . . . To me that whole thing was dead by about . . . at least by ’78 anyway. Once you took it out of the clubs it was halfway to being dead.
The last four lines of “Trans-Global Express”‘ seem to have an ironic ring now: how ‘hard’ was it for you to split The Jam?
I think it was quite a hard decision. Really, it was the thought of us continuing that I found more frightening; you know, the thought of all that security, just being that secure indefinitely.
It’s like when you leave home for the first time, like that, because it’s such an insular family thing — can you make it out on your own? What’ll it be like when there’s no kind of protection any more? At the same time, I think that’s why a lot of groups carry on.
Isn’t it also very insecure being in a band like The Jam? You’ve had a lot of success, and `Beat Surrender’ goes straight to number one; isn’t there an insecurity involved in whether or not you can ‘do it’ with the next record?
Well, I don’t find that. It’s never really bothered me whether I can follow things like that — number ones and all that. I’m more concerned with the quality of the records.
Is it then the financial security rather than, if you like, the emotional?
It’s not even finance. Because if it was finance I’d just carry The Jam on. It’s like that family thing, do you know what I mean? I can’t really explain it any better than that. The thing that frightened me most was that it could go on that long. Because I’m only 24; people forget that as well. I thought to be that secure at my age, I found that a bit frightening as well.
Did it make you feel guilty?
What? Splitting it up?
No, no . . .
The security?
24 and set up for life.
I don’t know if it made me feel guilty or not. I suppose it’s a bit easy; I like to have a bit more of a challenge, I think. Sort of start again and try and build something else up. I’m not ungrateful for what I’ve had, because I think it’s good, I really believe in what we’ve done, and I still do. I think I’ll always believe in what we’ve achieved. I think it’s really important. But as a person I need more challenges to try and do something else.
See, the other thing is . . . you get into this thing of an LP a year, then a tour and a single, and so on and so on. And that kind of goes against my principles a little bit. It gets a little bit like a production line, Even though we keep this quality control thing, I just feel like a fuckin’ machine. It’s the way you’re expected to churn things out as well. That gets on me tits.
The decision surprised me. Last time I saw you was when you came up to the office to get those Small Faces pictures and Danny Baker and myself were there. I think you had a cassette of ‘The Bitterest Pill’, and you were really enthusiastic. At that time had you seen an end?
Yeah, we decided . . . I’d told the others before that, before ‘The Bitterest Pill’ came out. But that’s what I’m saying: I’ll always be enthusiastic about what we’ve done. It’s like these concerts we’re doing, I’ve tried to make them really sort of UP! It’s not like a big fuckin’ wake or something. I don’t want it to be like that. For me, what we’ve done, I want to carry on anyway, that same sort of thing. And all our fans, I’d still like them to carry on believing in all the principles of it. So I don’t really see it as a past tense.
I mean, it’s the end of us as a group, but I don’t see it as an end to what we stood for. I still believe in all those things, I still want to carry on doing them, just in a different way. That’s really what it boils down to.
There’s that dichotomy, isn’t there, of what you stand for — your principles — and then The Jam becoming like so many other successful bands, just an institution?
Yeah, I think age does that. Time. The longer you go on it’s just got to become dissipated after a while. I think another thing as well is that people get used to having you around. You become institutionalised because you become just a bit too reliable, you’re always there. There’ll always be like a Jam tour this year, they’ll always be a Jam single or LP. People don’t mean it to be that way, it just happens that way. If you want something to be good and carry on being creative, you’ve got to break it up and start again.
But for those loyal Jam fans the yearly album, or the tour, or the singles, were the highlights. What happens to them now? Are they just stranded?
Well . . . At the same time I hope people have got something more from it than that. All those people who’ve grown up with us or are 17, 18 now, it really depends on what they’re going to be doing in the future. I always thought that The Jam went a little bit beyond just being a group, and just being music. I think there’s certain qualities about what we’ve done that people could use in their lives.
I suppose the obvious thing would be if there were some new groups coming up who were influenced by what we’ve done. I don’t mean necessarily musically; just like the ideals behind it. Maybe if they could use it that way. But even in other walks of life.
Out of all those thousands of kids, some of them have got to come into some sort of power at some time, possibly they’ll come in to some position of power. If in some way they could use that, use like these principles.
So what you’re saying is those fans don’t need anyone to replace you if the point of The Jam has had any effect?
I don’t think it needs another group to replace us, you know, to give them something in their lives. If I thought that then I would feel we hadn’t given them anything. Above all what I’d like to see is that people have got out of all of it, a real independence, a real sort of self-dignity. Speaking to a lot of them, and the letters that I’ve had, I think that does come from it quite strong.
But I do think the music scene in general needs some new groups. But that’s got to come from young people, teenagers, to really shake it up.
You didn’t feel threatened by any new groups coming along?
No. I’m all for it. I wish there was; I wish there was more. But I like to see sort of teenage groups. One of the things I’ve always been proud of is the fact that on our first record I was only 18. Just think it’s so important. I think it’d be great if there was a big new boost of groups of that age.
Do you feel you’re too old now?
No, not really. I mean, I wouldn’t like to be going out on the stage singing ‘When You’re Young’ when I’m about fuckin’ 30 or something. That’s just a joke, I think. Doing ‘Eton Rifles’ or `Down In The Tube Station’.
I don’t know how some of these old groups have got the gall to do it; to go out there. They must either be stupid or really don’t care. Cos I couldn’t do it. I wouldn’t able to look people in the face.
But I’ll have to make records and write songs, because it’s just in me to do it, and I wouldn’t want to do something else. But just do it in a different way, I suppose. But I don’t think I ever tried to set myself up as being some kind of youth leader, anyway, and I certainly wouldn’t try and do it now, cos that sort of thing’s got to come from young people.
Is 30 some kind of age threshold for you?
No. I think 25 is. (Laughs) For that sort of thing anyway. If it’s going to be young, teenage music, I think you’ve got to keep it that way. I think you’ve got to have some kind of limit on it. It doesn’t mean to say, that’s it, you’re finished. It just means you’ve got to move on and do something else. You’ve got to move with whatever age you are. I can’t stand these people who write teenage songs when they’re over 30. It’s just a travesty.
Did you know that Shelley was 30 when he died?
No. Would that be significant?
I thought it might have been.
I didn’t know that. I’m not into all that anyway. It’s not I hope I die before I get old — one of them.
BUT YOU FIND the spectacle of Jagger, for example, pretty pathetic?
Yeah, I think it’s depressing. The most depressing thing about it is that all them young people go to see him, and flock to fuckin’ Wembley to see him. Ridiculous! I couldn’t believe it. It’s nearly as bad as the fuckin’ Falklands thing. People still believe in fuckin’ dinosaurs like that.
And you know, I’d hate to end up like that. I just think it’s so embarrassing. Can’t really have respect for themselves, these people that do that. I suppose the other thing is they don’t give a shit, do they?
Your attitude seems a bit ambivalent towards The Jam’s effect: you want a lasting effect, but I’ve also seen quotes from you where you’ve said rock doesn’t change anything. Was that just at times of disillusionment?
Yeah, but I’ve never really seen us as part of the rock thing. I see us outside of that, anyway. I think I have done for quite a long time. I think it’s a whole lot of bullshit that’s talked about it and written about it — this rock rebellion thing. And your paper’s one of the fuckin’ worst for it. All this: the new face of rock rebellion. It’s a fuckin’ joke, because all these people are just full of shit! Even if they don’t mean to be; they all fall into the same old traps.
One of the biggest disappointments I ever had was in early ’78 when I saw Mick Jones outside the Music Machine with a bottle of whisky in his hands, staggering around. Someone I really believed in, like The Clash, hanging around with Mick Ronson and some old rockers.
So I think it’s got to be done in a different way. It’s hard to really describe it. I believe in . . . like . . . if you can get some kind of new trend in music which is really clean cut; not Cliff Richard clean cut, but clean culture, real culture. Not all this bullshit; this rock fuckin’ image and the crap that goes with it. All these elegantly wasted wankers, like Keith Richards. Not even that lot, all the new set as well.
People who should have known better should have learned from it. All the groups that we started with, our so-called peers, you see them and you realise that’s it’s such a drag, they never meant it, and they’re just the same as all the other old wankers. It’s a real disappointment.
Do you regret that picture of you and Paul McCartney, I think taken by Linda McCartney, wasn’t it?
I think that’s funny. He looks fuckin’ younger than me in it. I look really ill in that. (Laughs)
You don’t think that’s a similar thing to Jones hanging out with Ronson?
Well, I didn’t really think it’d get . . . thought it was for the private archive. But I don’t really care now, about that. Paul’s OK, you know. (Laughs) Macca — as I call him.
Nah, I don’t give a shit about that. I don’t see it’s the same thing really. I’m only pointing it out because that was someone I really respected. Just to see them following the same old rock traps and that. You’ve got all those old idiots to learn from, to see the ways not to do it. I don’t really mean to come across that self-righteous about it. I just find it . . . more disappointed about it, if anything. Disappointed with rock.
That’s one of the dangers because of the way the whole machinery works: people get separated from reality. Did you ever feel that?
Not particularly, no. It’s a lot easier to get separated from reality if you’ve got fuckin’ cocaine stuck up your nose, or you’re stoned out your fuckin’ head. I mean, I’ve had that a few times when I’ve been pissing it up or stoned.
You know all these rock casualties, don’t you? They fuckin’ deserve it. Do you know what I mean? I don’t give a shit about them; they don’t deserve to be written about or felt sorry for, or anything. It’s tough shit. The trap’s there to be seen.
It all depends on your general character; it depends how much you care about what you’re doing. So I’ve got no pity for any of those people, particularly. Some junkie dies down the road, right? Like Jimmy Brown. Some one nobody’s ever heard of, there’s no sort of full pages written about him.
It’s the glamorisation of excess.
Yeah. It’s a lot of bullshit. I’d really like to destroy it all. Unfortunately my sort of stance on it is a bit unfashionable at the moment. Some of the press things are quite against what I’m doing. But it’s only a matter of fashion for the papers. People who really matter I think I’ll get through to; that’s all I really care about.
The NME really glamorises it. And all the papers do, but NME in particular . . .
Your opinions are not really unfashionable. Phil Oakey is very anti-drugs.
Yeah. That’s true. And Adam. Perhaps I’m more trendy than what I thought. This sums up the culture that I really hate, in one statement. You know that group Fashion? They did a thing for you a few months ago, and there was one quote in that which you lot put as the headline statement — our music’s all about screwing and taking drugs. It was really fuckin’ corny; I couldn’t believe it. They’re all about 36 and 40. Pathetic.
I mean, I’m not even doing an anti-drugs thing anyway. I don’t even mean that. I’m just talking about the whole image of rock: the rock lifestyle. I’m not particularly trying to do an anti anything, anti-drink or anti-stoned, or whatever. The point is the whole myth behind it, which still exists. Which it shouldn’t do after punk. I really thought punk was going to blow all that crap right out of the window. It didn’t.
Paul Weller | The Return Of The Avenger | Part 1
Yes, but one of the things about punk was cans of beer and amphetamines.
Yeah.
Of all the drugs speed is a horror, isn’t it?
It’s alright at the time . . . (Laughs)
When did you come to that personal realisation to give up drugs and drink?
(Laughing) I think it was when I joined Friends Of The Earth. You better not put that in; people’ll think I’m fuckin’ serious.
I just got fed up with it; really bored with it. I got bored with seeing all these faces, all these people — like I said — who should have known better. And after seeing them I was seeing myself, really.
An’ it just does you in after a while, as well. Now I just prefer to keep myself together and become more determined and just achieve more. Cos there’s just so much time gets wasted, fuckin’ around doing nothing really. So I’d sooner just use what I’ve got.
WHAT DO YOU think is the significant of The Jam’s career? You talk about what “we’ve achieved”, but you’re not really very specific. Is there anything where you can say, Yes, we’ve achieved this. Maybe it’s a political thing.
The main things to me, which probably to some people might be trivial, are like sticking to my ideals; and us in general, trying to stick to what we said. You know, things that we said we were gonna do.
Whenever I start talking about it I always imagine people’ll think it kinda trivialises it. But just little things, like . . . . the way some groups just get record companies running all over them, releasing the whole LP in fuckin’ instalments. Obviously we’re just more committed to what we’ve done. I find it a little hard to explain really, because it’s a kind of feeling as well.
One way I feel about it is: we fuckin’ meant it, and a lot of other bands don’t. And I just think that if there’s any kind of significance, it’s just that we’re one of the first groups to ever do that. I don’t think there are any other bands that have done that.
DID YOU READ Townshend’s Time Out piece about you in March? What was your reaction to that?
I didn’t really understand it, but the bits I caught I thought were a load of bollocks really. Dunno what he was on about. What did you make of it?
Some of the points he made I thought were quite good. For example, where he says, “Weller takes on the whole of British society without a blink. The Jam are a small army dedicated to the awakening of a sleeping nation.” I would have thought that was something you’d agree with.
Yeah . . . (Thoughtful) . . . But big deal. You know what I mean? Just because it comes from Pete Townshend. With the last quote I’d probably agree, but I don’t really understand the first one. I don’t know whether he means I do it in a very naive way or not.
No. I think he meant it as compliment.
Cheers, Pete. (Laughs)
You’re not very fond of him?
I think he’s OK. I don’t really know him well enough to sort of comment, but from the few times I’ve met him he seems quite a nice geezer really. I think he regrets not splitting up sooner.
That thing about “the sleeping nation”, I do agree with that. I tell you the stuff I really like is some of the things I’ve read by people like Shelley and Blake. They was always into that thing about stirring the people up; this emotional stirring. I really like that a lot.
It’s quite a romantic notion, possibly a bit naive, but I think it’s really powerful that. Some of them Shelley poems.
You also admire George Orwell, who was more practical in stirring up emotions. For example, I was re-reading The Road To Wigan Pier, and I found it really depressing. I took it on holiday with me, and regretted it.
There are some better books than that, though. Homage To Catalonia is really good. There’s some really stirring bits in that. And —what’s the other? — Coming Up For Air. Have you read that? I think that’s good.
Have you read Homage To Catalonia? About the Spanish Civil War. I thought there was a brilliant bit in that where he describes when he gets to Barcelona for the first time, and like egalitarian society, and it’s working then . . . I thought that was really powerful. Cos you get all these cynics who say it can never work; just to show that there actually was a place where it did exist. Really powerful. Really caught the enthusiasm in that.
What about 1984 and Animal Farm?
I think they’re good. Clever books, I think.
Did they give you more of a political awareness?
Yeah . . . but they’re both sort of cynical, aren’t they? That’s why I like that passage in the Catalonia book, that opened me up a little bit more politically. To actually see things in practice, things that have been done, I find that more positive, cos it’s easy to be cynical about politics, and the cynical fuckin’ people who deal in ’em.
That’s the other thing in that Townshend bit, where he says I brush off all politicians and Jam fans do. Remember that bit? I thought that was crap! I mean, I think all politicians are fuckin’ scum . . .
“Jam fans are thinkers and musical reactionists, who tend to reject all politicians pretty much out of hand,” Townshend wrote.
Yeah, well, I think people should. How many good politicians can you name?
Don’t you have a political hero?
I tend to see Orwell in that vein. I really like his politics even though he’s a public schoolboy. There’s probably a contradiction in that, in some of the things I’ve said; but I still like a lot of his attitudes and a lot of his politics.
I think Tony Benn’s got some good ideas. The thing that pisses me off is that most of these people always come from, like, those backgrounds. All come through that system. It’d be great if we had political heroes who just come from working class backgrounds. It just never happens.
That’s the main thing that pisses me off: it’s the same old people in power, always goes round, and just stays in the same places. Never ever seems to change. And every now and again you’ll get someone who sort of slips through. But . . .
That’s why I hate them all: they’re just like shells of people. All they’re full of is just bullshit, and their own kind of manifestoes, which are like nothing at all anyway, really.
That’s what’s needed, someone who fuckin’ means what they say; someone who gets a bit more emotional about it. I don’t think there’s been any politicians — not in my generation’s time anyway — who’ve been like that.
Do you think The Jam have had a political reaction? When Townshend says you “reject all politicians pretty much out of hand”, he was also talking about your lyrics: how you weren’t afraid to address them to Lords and Peers and MPs.
I suppose, yes. Obviously the fans who really do read the lyrics, then I’d imagine so, yeah. Unless it’s just they feel the same way anyway. A lot of people do. Especially a lot of young people.
But all them things do need someone attacking them, not just a pop group doing it. Publicly they need to be attacked anyway. It is crap! It’s the same thing that’s been going on for years and years.
“Trans-Global Express”‘ seems to be a really strong political statement.
Yeah, but it’s also common sense. I don’t find it particularly radical or anything like that. To me it’s obvious that people want to live, not in a perfect society but make things better. It’s obvious that people should want to work together, work towards a cause. I don’t even think that notion’s naive, either. To me, that’s just the way it should be. The fact that isn’t is just down to conditions. I don’t think it’s down to any human conditions. I don’t think you’re born greedy. I think a lot of it’s down to conditions you grow up in, really.
You don’t think that political statements in pop music are like pissing on a burning building to try and put it out; as ineffectual as that?
No, I think they are important. They wouldn’t change the world, but I still think it’s important because it’s part of our culture.
There’s always been a theme of “honesty” in your songs, and one of the things Townshend said in his Time Out piece was: “I have never come across another artist or writer so afraid of appearing hypocritical.” Was that one of the reasons you split The Jam? You didn’t want to be hypocritical and go against your principles by continuing?
I think that’s part of it, yeah. See, I like really pure things. I like really pure ideas. I think it’s great you’ve got something that’s like, not necessarily flawless . . . I’m not sure, really, because you can talk round in circles about it. Basically, I just like people to mean things, right? Whether we’re talking about politics, music or whatever, it’s just so much better when you know someone means it; it just has so much more impact.
I always wanna keep that in what I do. The more you go on, and you do six LPs and then you do your seventh and your eighth and your ninth, I just don’t see how you can keep that commitment, and that kind of intensity up. At some point in time it’s got to drop.
Some people might say that’ll be a good thing cos it shows like the human side, shows like a bit of the human face of you. But I don’t see that. If you count on doing it for 20 fuckin’ years, it’s not gonna work.
I suppose people just either get greedy or they just get complacent about it. If you’re enjoying something that’s good, then obviously you want it to continue, but it’s not always the best idea.
Paul Weller | The Return Of The Avenger | Part 2
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